Mapping question

[Chester Elegante]

I've read this thread with interest and can see both sides of the coin. In my opinion it would seem the best thing to do would be to discuss the locking issue with your tuner before getting the car mapped. If you feel certain features are best left unlocked for minor "on-the-road" adjustments then I don't see the problem. After all that is what the hand commander is for.

On a side note, Tomei developed an ecu (the reytec) and their philosophy seems to be running at odds with everyone elses, they will sell anyone (in Japan) the software to map it and the cables etc. Also they mention that everyone with the system should upload their maps onto a database along with mods done, power achieved etc so anyone with a similiar spec car can see roughly how the map looks thus saving time and engines mapping their own car.

[Rich B]

Originally Posted by Checkpoint

To be perfectly honest you could probably count the number of people in the UK that actually know what they are doing with mapping ECU's on your fingers, therefore those of them that choose to protect their knowledge should be entitled to.
If you have an ECU that you want mapped by an expert you can't expect them to let you see what they have done (you wouldn't ask microsoft how they wrote windows just because you bought it) therefore if you have an ECU that you want to access the settings you would have to ask the question before you get them to map it.

thats EXACTLY the point though..
microsofts work is patented and copyrighted.. so they do have the right.
A tuners work isnt.

as someone else mentioned, if i had a locked map from tuner A and then decided i wanted a minor modification fitting at tuner B it is completely unreasonable and unnecessary to expect that i should pay for a complete remap from scratch with tuner B just because tuner A locked the map. Its basically holding the customer to ransom.
If i pay for a map it is my right to do what ever i like with that map..I own the ecu and the settings on it. unless tuners start applying copyright etc to their maps they have no claim what-so-ever over them.
The only reason for locking a map is to prevent human stupidity, to stop the customer killing their car. But should they ask for the password i cant see a tuner having a leg to stand on trying to refuse.

Im glad i have a Link ECU. You cant lock the maps on them. I know full well its often essential to be able to change settings yourself. Things i change in mine;
Launch control rpm (for road and 1/4mile)
Warm up enrichment map (default map throws far too much fuel in so ive cut it back, but as winter approaches i may need to add a little back in here and there. To do this i need to be able to view the map live to see where it needs adding)
Speed or RPM limit if i have to leave the car with a garage i dont trust not to joy ride

[Checkpoint]

Originally Posted by Rich B

thats EXACTLY the point though..
microsofts work is patented and copyrighted.. so they do have the right.
A tuners work isnt.

I know what your saying

TBH most mapping is straight forward (if you you know what you are doing) and hardly justifies protecting, but if you wanted us to build you an 800+ bhp 2 litre and leave the map for all to see.... we'd politely ask you to go elsewhere

The main reason experienced mappers lock their maps is because there are so many pretenders out there that would benefit from seeing it, and seeing as they are usually the ones that are first to try and slag another tuner off then why should they get any pointers. We only lock maps we know others would struggle to replicate.

Obviously mapping CAN be learned, but to think someone with no tuning experience could map their own car properly without years of practice is a joke.

[Rich B]

thats fair enough yes.. and im sure most are not bothered about having the map locked.

just trying to get across its the customer map..
as you say though.. in reality your not going to kick up a fuss over it with your tuner or theyll advise you go elsewhere. like i said better option would be to get a by-pass password if you need access to it.

[Checkpoint]

Originally Posted by Rich B

as someone else mentioned, if i had a locked map from tuner A and then decided i wanted a minor modification fitting at tuner B it is completely unreasonable and unnecessary to expect that i should pay for a complete remap from scratch with tuner B just because tuner A locked the map. Its basically holding the customer to ransom.
If i pay for a map it is my right to do what ever i like with that map..I own the ecu and the settings on it. unless tuners start applying copyright etc to their maps they have no claim what-so-ever over them.
The only reason for locking a map is to prevent human stupidity, to stop the customer killing their car. But should they ask for the password i cant see a tuner having a leg to stand on trying to refuse.

Im glad i have a Link ECU. You cant lock the maps on them. I know full well its often essential to be able to change settings yourself. Things i change in mine;
Launch control rpm (for road and 1/4mile)
Warm up enrichment map (default map throws far too much fuel in so ive cut it back, but as winter approaches i may need to add a little back in here and there. To do this i need to be able to view the map live to see where it needs adding)
Speed or RPM limit if i have to leave the car with a garage i dont trust not to joy ride

In your example above if we were "tuner B" we would not just "tweak" another tuners map as it is an unknown quantity, we would go over the whole map ensuring it was correct i.e. a full remap. To "tweak" a map you have not done yourself is crazy (there is more than one way to map an ecu).

If your car was mapped by us in the summer and needed the cold start enrichment tweaked in the winter (something we obviously couldn't check in the summer, but usually get it right through experience anyway ) we would do it for free. If you lived 300miles away and didn't want to travel back and needed it tweaked for winter then thats your problem for getting it mapped so far away in the summer

I'll also add that more extreme builds (generally higher bhp cars that need huge injectors etc) are always harder to set up properly and need a lot more mapping time, and you definitely don't get any base maps for these so all the cold start etc has to be conceived by the mapper, it's often the smooth running low down that is time consuming to get right not the full load parts of the map.

[Captain Drift]

I have an HKS Ecu and I know it is locked, I know there is also only a few tuners that can map my car as access to the software is limited by HKS. I can contact HKS and they will give me a list of the Power writers in the UK.
I know with the addition of the HKS Navigator I can change certain parameters. My tuner said they have a copy of my map and would know if i had changed anything so if the engine went pop then it my fault.

It seems that if the software is so easily available then it can cause problems, By limiting who has access to the mapping software yes prices will be higher, but the quality of the work is higher.

Checkpoint you make a point, How far do people travel for Ecu mapping.
Would people travel further for a better (more expirienced) tuner?

[Andy Kain]

Originally Posted by Checkpoint

If you lived 300miles away and didn't want to travel back and needed it tweaked for winter then thats your problem for getting it mapped so far away in the summer

Not everyone lives on the doorstep of a tuner, my closest is 160 miles one way. So thats a bit of a **** thing to say and this is the tuner who has locked my map. If I want my car mapped then I have no other option other than to travel further, so its not a case of just dropping in.

[Checkpoint]

Originally Posted by Captain Drift

I have an HKS Ecu and I know it is locked, I know there is also only a few tuners that can map my car as access to the software is limited by HKS. I can contact HKS and they will give me a list of the Power writers in the UK.
I know with the addition of the HKS Navigator I can change certain parameters. My tuner said they have a copy of my map and would know if i had changed anything so if the engine went pop then it my fault.

It seems that if the software is so easily available then it can cause problems, By limiting who has access to the mapping software yes prices will be higher, but the quality of the work is higher.

Checkpoint you make a point, How far do people travel for Ecu mapping.
Would people travel further for a better (more expirienced) tuner?

HKS like Motec are selective with who they let map ecu's, Abbey could map your ecu for you?

As Andy mentioned, Tomei (who are not stupid) have an ecu that they encourage people to map....... so would i if i sold engine parts Seriously tho, some people can and like to fiddle with there own cars and some are quite good at it, this is an outlet for them.

How far you travel is up to the individual, i have friends that travel the length of the country to pick up car parts rather than have them delivered whereas i don't have the time or inclination to travel if i don't have to.

We map most ecu's, we don't do HKS or Hondata and the likes as we are far too busy with what we do map, so have never bothered getting the software/dealerships.

[Checkpoint]

Originally Posted by Andy Kain

Not everyone lives on the doorstep of a tuner, my closest is 160 miles one way. So thats a bit of a **** thing to say and this is the tuner who has locked my map. If I want my car mapped then I have no other option other than to travel further, so its not a case of just dropping in.

It's not a **** thing to say at all. I just tell it like it is It's not my fault someone wants a service that is so far away from them?
If you bought a rare gift from a shop in Egypt that won't deliver and wanted another, then tough **** you'll have to go back??

[Andy M GTS]

Originally Posted by Checkpoint

It's not my fault someone wants a service that is so far away from them?

This is also where good feedback and reputation comes into it as there maybe someone on your doorstep but you may choose to travel to get that "extra" service and confidence , like if I had a mapable ECU Calum/Checkpoint would be my first port of call and he's a few miles away ...

[Captain Drift]

Checkpoint
Where is live I am equal distance from Abbey and GT ArT, and SP Autos is not much further, so spoilt for choice.
As Andy M GTS mentions , I am sure some people will travel further for the "extra" service.

[Andy Kain]

This thread is about locking the map or not, it has nothing to do with travelling to tuners, Or repeat visits to said tuner to have it tweeked, thats why I said the comment was **** as it has no relevance. If I decide to go and see `a` tuner for my mapping needs over `b` tuner it has nothing to do with distance. It has everything to do with reputation and comments from others who have been to them.